Love and agree with most of this -- especially with dating based on three core values. When I did that I found myself surprised by how God brought me a man who created and checked all the other boxes! Simplicity is the best initiator of romance! However, having lived and grown up with Amish, I disagree with the photo comparison. Mennonite and Amish women marry young and at higher rates than "English" women. Their "modest" dresses and virgin status don't hinder them at all. Average age of marriage among Amish girls is 20-22, and they have an average of 6 children per women ... and most of my Amish friends are happy, strong women!
(Also a not very well known fact, but Anabaptist girls are master flirts. I might've learned a few tips and tricks from them myself). It's true men don't actually demand or expect a woman to be a virgin (my husband was surprised that I was), but what they do want is to know that someone will stick by them through thick and thin, and if the woman can prove that her past (or lack of past) isn't really gonna matter all that much.
I think it's obvious that within that community, hypermodesty is the norm. Outside of that community, it is not. I think it's a great community btw! (And I do actually find Amish TikTok very funny.) You should write a "Lessons in Flirtation Amish Women Taught Me" article! It would be fun. :)
Yes, in order to be hypermodest outside of "archaic" communities you have to be sort of nonchalant in your modesty. One of my best friends and I only wear long dresses and very feminine/ modest cuts. And we would often frequent bars together -- because we weren't prudes in our hearts and knew how to flirt like an Anabaptist girl, but also had values, we turned a lot of heads lol! I never had an issue attracting men, but it took me so long to marry because it was so hard to find a man that I felt would cherish me the way an Amish man cherishes his wife (and I think God wanted me to learn a few lessons lol!). My husband and I just visited my old community and stayed with a couple our age. It was so wild -- they are our age, but have seven kids and here we are barely in the second trimester with our first haha! We were so inspired by their daily family life and how much love and skill is in their home. We want to emulate as much of that as we possible can while being Catholic. I think I will write about this though! It's just my sort of topic. I appreciated your essay, and the conversation!!
I honestly find it shocking how late people get married. I was 24 and my wife was 21 when we got married. I honestly don’t think it would be hard for young Christian women to set the goal of getting married by the time they Graduate college. It gets much harder to make time for romance once you’re working. My two cents, at least, but maybe I just got lucky.
In the early part of the essay, you mention the financial risk element of procreation. I wonder why Christian churches don't pool resources and select a few couples to financially aid to start the process earlier? Once those couples 'settled', move to a new group. Instead of sponsoring 'missionary' work in the rest of the world, the churches could sponsor 'missionary position' work closer to home.
I really enjoyed the article, lots of interesting points.
Your cover photo caught my attention, I had to zoom in to check whether I recognize any of those girls. I instantly knew exactly which church group they're from and what they're doing in the photo, because I spent some years in that setting myself.
Just to give you an idea how much difference cultural context makes, statistically all but one or two of those girls will be married by age 23 or 24, to men who will be earning top 5% income on average, and will have 5-12 children by the time they're 40. None of them will ever get divorced.
I recently attended the wedding of one of my friends from that setting. He and his wife got married really late, he's 30 and she's 27. That was basically crisis age for them. She was living overseas, they met, he traveled to see her 3 times and she traveled to see him twice, and they got married within a year of meeting. I'm quite confident they'll have a very happy and successful marriage. Both of the speakers at their wedding mentioned also getting married "a little later in life," one at 27 and the other at 26.
I know you're giving advice to people in the mainstream Christian churches, and I'm not saying that to criticize your advice, which I mostly agree with in that context. I'm just pointing out that dating and marriage are very cultural issues. So some of your points would be incorrect or unnecessary if Christian culture were different, and evidence suggests the relationship and marriage outcomes would be better under those circumstances. Just food for thought from the "why" angle, as opposed to the "how to succeed with what is" angle you addressed.
"Too many people are dating based on preferences and not values, and preferences will not make a relationship or marriage work." Oooo! THE seminal phrase in this piece. Fyi, I have two nieces. one early 40's, the other early 50's who have never married. There parents moved up to where they live, they bought a house where all four now live. I don't see either of them finding a husband.
Great job! As a man (churchgoing but wouldn’t call myself devout) I found this spot on in all the points!
Very attuned as well on the point of men not wanting virgins; there’s a wide gap between virginity and promiscuity. Most men play in that gap, not at the ends of it.
The problem here, as you hint at, is dating itself. Dating is not mentioned in the Bible (nor is courtship) because it was not done. We reject the ways that women in Scripture found their spouses, and then are shocked that our rejection doesn't result in Godly marriages.
In order to get our Christian young women (and men) married, we need to reject dating.
(NB Father of six, father in law of six, grandfather of 25 (born, so far)... so I have real world experience.)
While I consider "undateable" to be a perception, not a fact, this article is filled with helpful advice.
"Young singles should wed and have children in their twenties and accept that they will struggle financially for a decade or so.
... Obviously, the twenty-somethings don't understand this nor are capable of being convinced of it, so let's move on"
I'm fairly certain there is a belief among many younger people that they should start marriage with a standard of living similar to the current level of their parents. That's quite unlikely to happen until at lea they are age 30.
This is spot on, as a Catholique man I could not disagree with a single word, you're very wise madame. Can only hope that this gets thousands or tens of thousands of views. It was fascinating seeing someone else's perspective on this particular topic.
Thanks ☺️ Lol! I was following some of this advice and it landed me nowhere. I’m still a virgin and I know that can help me weed out Men who are not serious.
Love and agree with most of this -- especially with dating based on three core values. When I did that I found myself surprised by how God brought me a man who created and checked all the other boxes! Simplicity is the best initiator of romance! However, having lived and grown up with Amish, I disagree with the photo comparison. Mennonite and Amish women marry young and at higher rates than "English" women. Their "modest" dresses and virgin status don't hinder them at all. Average age of marriage among Amish girls is 20-22, and they have an average of 6 children per women ... and most of my Amish friends are happy, strong women!
(Also a not very well known fact, but Anabaptist girls are master flirts. I might've learned a few tips and tricks from them myself). It's true men don't actually demand or expect a woman to be a virgin (my husband was surprised that I was), but what they do want is to know that someone will stick by them through thick and thin, and if the woman can prove that her past (or lack of past) isn't really gonna matter all that much.
I think it's obvious that within that community, hypermodesty is the norm. Outside of that community, it is not. I think it's a great community btw! (And I do actually find Amish TikTok very funny.) You should write a "Lessons in Flirtation Amish Women Taught Me" article! It would be fun. :)
Yes, in order to be hypermodest outside of "archaic" communities you have to be sort of nonchalant in your modesty. One of my best friends and I only wear long dresses and very feminine/ modest cuts. And we would often frequent bars together -- because we weren't prudes in our hearts and knew how to flirt like an Anabaptist girl, but also had values, we turned a lot of heads lol! I never had an issue attracting men, but it took me so long to marry because it was so hard to find a man that I felt would cherish me the way an Amish man cherishes his wife (and I think God wanted me to learn a few lessons lol!). My husband and I just visited my old community and stayed with a couple our age. It was so wild -- they are our age, but have seven kids and here we are barely in the second trimester with our first haha! We were so inspired by their daily family life and how much love and skill is in their home. We want to emulate as much of that as we possible can while being Catholic. I think I will write about this though! It's just my sort of topic. I appreciated your essay, and the conversation!!
I honestly find it shocking how late people get married. I was 24 and my wife was 21 when we got married. I honestly don’t think it would be hard for young Christian women to set the goal of getting married by the time they Graduate college. It gets much harder to make time for romance once you’re working. My two cents, at least, but maybe I just got lucky.
In the early part of the essay, you mention the financial risk element of procreation. I wonder why Christian churches don't pool resources and select a few couples to financially aid to start the process earlier? Once those couples 'settled', move to a new group. Instead of sponsoring 'missionary' work in the rest of the world, the churches could sponsor 'missionary position' work closer to home.
I really enjoyed the article, lots of interesting points.
Your cover photo caught my attention, I had to zoom in to check whether I recognize any of those girls. I instantly knew exactly which church group they're from and what they're doing in the photo, because I spent some years in that setting myself.
Just to give you an idea how much difference cultural context makes, statistically all but one or two of those girls will be married by age 23 or 24, to men who will be earning top 5% income on average, and will have 5-12 children by the time they're 40. None of them will ever get divorced.
I recently attended the wedding of one of my friends from that setting. He and his wife got married really late, he's 30 and she's 27. That was basically crisis age for them. She was living overseas, they met, he traveled to see her 3 times and she traveled to see him twice, and they got married within a year of meeting. I'm quite confident they'll have a very happy and successful marriage. Both of the speakers at their wedding mentioned also getting married "a little later in life," one at 27 and the other at 26.
I know you're giving advice to people in the mainstream Christian churches, and I'm not saying that to criticize your advice, which I mostly agree with in that context. I'm just pointing out that dating and marriage are very cultural issues. So some of your points would be incorrect or unnecessary if Christian culture were different, and evidence suggests the relationship and marriage outcomes would be better under those circumstances. Just food for thought from the "why" angle, as opposed to the "how to succeed with what is" angle you addressed.
Well, certainly, they know something the rest of us could learn from.
"Too many people are dating based on preferences and not values, and preferences will not make a relationship or marriage work." Oooo! THE seminal phrase in this piece. Fyi, I have two nieces. one early 40's, the other early 50's who have never married. There parents moved up to where they live, they bought a house where all four now live. I don't see either of them finding a husband.
Great job! As a man (churchgoing but wouldn’t call myself devout) I found this spot on in all the points!
Very attuned as well on the point of men not wanting virgins; there’s a wide gap between virginity and promiscuity. Most men play in that gap, not at the ends of it.
People in the church: The Bible doesn't say anything about sex appeal. Song of Solomon: Am I joke to you?
The problem here, as you hint at, is dating itself. Dating is not mentioned in the Bible (nor is courtship) because it was not done. We reject the ways that women in Scripture found their spouses, and then are shocked that our rejection doesn't result in Godly marriages.
In order to get our Christian young women (and men) married, we need to reject dating.
(NB Father of six, father in law of six, grandfather of 25 (born, so far)... so I have real world experience.)
All men value a low body count retard
Nah lol
MOST. Certainly not all.
You can over-think “initiate”
I was proud of my daughter the other day. Messages a guy she hadn’t seen for a while
Her: Hi. How are you?
Him: Good to hear from you. I’m well
Her: I’d like to meet up
Him: Me too
Her: I’m free … . You tell me where & when
That’s healthy. She’s made space so he can take the lead
While I consider "undateable" to be a perception, not a fact, this article is filled with helpful advice.
"Young singles should wed and have children in their twenties and accept that they will struggle financially for a decade or so.
... Obviously, the twenty-somethings don't understand this nor are capable of being convinced of it, so let's move on"
I'm fairly certain there is a belief among many younger people that they should start marriage with a standard of living similar to the current level of their parents. That's quite unlikely to happen until at lea they are age 30.
This is spot on, as a Catholique man I could not disagree with a single word, you're very wise madame. Can only hope that this gets thousands or tens of thousands of views. It was fascinating seeing someone else's perspective on this particular topic.
Thank you so much for this! I’m in my mid 20s and have struggled to attract a man in person. I needed this 🙏🏾
You have my full permission to be a Pick Me! 😆❤️
Thanks ☺️ Lol! I was following some of this advice and it landed me nowhere. I’m still a virgin and I know that can help me weed out Men who are not serious.